I’m wondering if I can find out a little more about Copley of London? I have one of his saws in a pile here, but know very little of him. If anyone has more info I’d be delighted to publish it. I now get a lot of hits on the site from people just looking for basic information about English makers, I’m keen to collate as much information as I can for other people to use. Thanks very much.
Established in 1770 I believe, Richard Groves & Sons was a thoroughbred Sheffield steel refiner and producer of edge tools. (I mainly hunt for their wonderful saws, one of which is pictured above).
Steadfast to their old localities in Snow hill are Richard Groves & Sons, perhaps the oldest saw manufacturers in the town. Mr. Groves, the grandfather of the present firm, always had an open Bible before him on his work-board.
(Reminiscences of Old Sheffield, Its Streets and Its People” Robert Eadon Leader – 1875)
I have seen saws marked as Sheffield, obviously, but also marked with ‘London’. It would seem there is some agreement that the London mark was to convey more of a prestigious quality once R.Groves started exporting. Some people disagree and think the London mark is more to denote quality, where the ‘London Spring’ is purely to denote the use of the best quality spring steel.
(Note: The word “spring” is a pretty common descriptor on saws. Spring steel was different for the higher carbon (about 1%-1.5%) content and other elements and compounds in the alloy. It could be tempered to a good hardness for tools while having a quality of elasticity (as opposed to brittleness). This grade of steel was good for carriage springs, hence the name, and top-grade handsaws).The saw I have recently purchased has the Sheffield mark with ‘silver steel’.
The ‘& Sons’ is thought to be in use at least after 1822, with Groves starting to use label screws (medallions) around then. Groves saws carry the ‘USE’ medallion from around 1825. The advertisements for Richard Groves and Sons show the “USE” as their corporate mark. The corporate mark was granted by the Cutlers’ Company and Registered In England and Germany.
R.Groves obviously did very well in their business, with exporting making up a good percentage of their trade.
I buy good quality tools from well-known 19thc makers. If you have any R.Groves saws in good condition, get in touch.
This saw turned up in a recent pile I bought. It’s a mitre saw by ‘Waller’ but I’ve so far been unable to find out much about the company. There’s a conversation on Backsaw.net about ‘Waller & Co’, but straight Waller saws remain an enigma. Was the company Waller in it’s early life, before becoming ‘& Co’ later? It’s a lovely saw anyway.
As a sidenote, I have around 10-15 saws I really would like to get sharpened up. Does anyone know a good service I can use from London, or perhaps even someone still hand-sharpening in the area? I plan to learn myself, but have no workshop as yet to work in.
A couple of the saws need a slight straighten, most are brass-backed tenon saws and one needs taking down an 1/8 and re-toothing.
Over on Critical Past they have a wonderful collection of footage showing the men of Henry Disston & Sons making their famous saws. Check it out. Not often you can find such videos. Tip ‘o the hat to Gary at Toolemera for the link.
I had an hour to fill this morning and spent it changing a (literal) block of rust, into a Ward & Payne hacksaw. A really lovely old saw, nice deep, original blade and such graceful curves to the body. So nice to see the blade held in under tension with just a couple of nails. Lovely! (A bit more research on the web has this saw marked down as a ‘Ward & Payne B-3 Shop Pattern Metal Saw Sheffield’). Now on eBay.
